>> HELLO EVERYONE, WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

[ HORN ] A MOMENT OF SILENCE AS ISRAEL COMMEMORATES THREE YEARS SINCE THE OCTOBER 7th MASSACRE.

I SPEAK WITH THEM AGAIN, BREACHING THE PALESTINIAN/ISRAELI DIVIDE SEARCHING FOR PEACE.

THEN -- >> WE'RE KICKING IRAN'S ASS.

IT'S GOING TO END SOON.

>> THERE'S NO SIGN OF RESOLUTION.

> >> THEN -- >> THE RISKS POSED TO JOURNALISTS ARE DIFFERENT THAN WHEN I WAS ABDUCTED.

>> 541 DAYS IN AN IRANIAN PRISON, NOW THE JOURNALIST SPEAKS ABOUT THREATS TO PRESS FREEDOM AROUND THE WORLD.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

TODAY, ISRAEL MOURNS AS THE COUNTRY MARKS THREE YEARS AFTER THE BRUTAL HAMAS ATTACK, HUNDREDS HUNDREDS KIDNAPPED, THE NATION TRAUMATIZED.

THEN ISRAEL LAUNCHED AN OPERATION AGAINST GAZA.

MORE THAN 74,000 PALESTINIANS WERE KILLED, INCLUDING MORE THAN 20,000 CHILDREN.

ALMOST 2 MILLION PEOPLE, 90% OF GAZA'S POPULATION, HAVE BEEN DISPLACED.

GIVEN THE WAR'S BRUTALITY AND ALLEGATIONS OF WAR CRIMES, ISRAEL HAS SEEN ITS STANDING ON THE WORLD STAGE PLUMMET.

HAMAS IS SEVERELY DEGRADED BUT NOT DESTROYED AND PROSPECTS FOR PEACE LOOK FURTHER AWAY THAN OTHERS.

SOME REMAIN DEDICATED TO IT.

THESE MEN BOTH KNOW THE COST OF TRYING TO DO THIS AND THE HEARTBREAK OF THIS CONFLICT ALL TOO WELL.

ROBBY'S SON DAVID WAS KILLED BY A PALESTINIAN SNIPER.

BASAN'S DAUGHTER WAS KILLED BY ISRAELI POLICE.

AND ROBBY'S,A PEACE ACTIVIST, WAS AMONG THOSE MURDERED BY HAMAS.

NOW WE WANT TO TALK TO ROBBY AND THEN BASAN.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING TO YOU QUITE A LOT OVER PERIODS OF TIME CHECKING IN SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU TODAY, WHAT YOU'RE FEELING THREE YEARS ON.

>> I WAS THINKING ABOUT GRIEF.

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF GRIEF?

IS IT A POLITICAL AFFILIATION?

IS THE PAIN A BLUE AND WHITE FLAG OR A PALESTINIAN FLAG?

I DON'T THINK SO, I THINK THE PAIN IS THE SAME PAIN.

ALL DAY LONG I'VE JUST BEEN THINKING HOW MANY PEOPLE WILL BE LEFT AFTER THE MEDIA GOES AWAY WITH THEIR PAIN, AND WHAT MASK THEY WILL WEAR EVERY DAY TO MANAGE TO COPE WITH THAT PAIN.

SINCE OCTOBER THE 7th -- >> TELL ME ABOUT LOSING VIVIAN.

SHE WAS NOT JUST A CLOSE FRIEND BUT WELL KNOWN AS A PEACE ACTIVIST DESPITE EVERYTHING.

>> THERE ARE A LOT OF PEACE ACTIVISTS KILLED THAT SAME DAY, MORE THAN 80 FAMILIES FROM THE SOUTH HAVE JOINED .

THAT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY THING TO SEE, HOW QUICKLY THEY CAME TO THE CIRCLE AND ARE BRINGING A MESSAGE ALL OVER THE WORLD TO STOP THE VIOLENCE.

I THINK THAT'S SOMEWHAT OF A MIRACLE.

SOME PEOPLE TAKE SOMETHING LIKE 15 YEARS TO JUST GET TO THE PARENT CIRCLE, BUT THESE PEOPLE ARE ALREADY FUNCTIONING, WORKING IN SCHOOLS.

I THINK I TOLD YOU LAST TIME WE MET WE WERE THROWN OUT OF THE OLDER SCHOOLS IN ISRAEL.

OF COURSE WE'RE NOT EXACTLY THE FLAVOR OF THE DAY WITH THE GOVERNMENT, AND WE WENT TO COURT AND WE HAVE RE-ESTABLISHED THE FACT WE CAN ACTUALLY GO BACK INTO SCHOOLS.

BUT THE WHOLE WORLD IS SO POLARIZED.

AFTER OCTOBER, WE HAD THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TURNING TO US TO MAKE US COME AND BRING HOPE, WHICH IS A LITTLE BIT IRONIC, ACTUALLY.

WHAT WE DID IN THE LONG RUN IS CREATE A PROGRAM, CALLED LISTENING FROM THE HEART.

WE DID THIS WITH GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY AND IT'S MADE FOR CAMPUSES ALL OVER THE WORLD, FOR THE STUDENTS.

I'VE BEEN TO COLUMBIA, ALL THE UNIVERSITIES, HARVARD, BARNARD, TO TALK TO THE STUDENTS.

IT'S SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE WHAT SHOULD YOU SAY TO THESE KIDS WHO CARE?

I THINK WHAT YOU SHOULD SAY IS PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH, LOOK FOR THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE WORKING TO STOP THIS TERRIBLE OCCUPATION.

LOOK FOR THE ORGANIZATIONS LIKE --DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE PARENT CIRCLE THAT I BELONG TO.

IT COULD BE COMBATANTS FOR PEACE, ANY OF THE ORGANIZATIONS, COULD BE BREAK THE SILENCE.

IF YOU LOOK AT THOSE ORGANIZATIONS, FIND ONE THAT TALKS TO YOU, START TO SUPPORT THEM, THEN YOU'LL MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN OUR LIVES.

>> SO IMPORTANT.

YOU JUST MENTIONED COMBATANTS FOR PEACE, THAT IS THE ORGANIZATION YOUR FELLOW TRAVELER, BASAM, IS IN, HE'S THE COFOUNDER OF THAT.

LET ME ASK YOU WHAT I WAS ASKING ROBBY.

YOU'VE GIVEN YOUR LIFE SINCE YOUR DAUGHTER WAS KILLED BY ISRAELI POLICE AND ROBBY'S SON WAS KILLED BY A PALESTINIAN SNIPER SINCE 2007.

YOU'VE BEEN TRYING TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

HOW DO YOU REFLECT ON EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED, OCTOBER 7th TO NOW, THREE YEARS LATER?

>> THANK YOU FOR THE INVITATION, I LOST MY DAUGHTER IN 2007 AND ROBBY LOST HIS SON IN 2002.

WHAT HAPPENED OCTOBER 7th, WE ALWAYS MENTION 20 YEARS BEFORE.

AND SAY IN ONE DAY IT WILL BLOW UP IN OUR FACES.

YOU CANNOT OCCUPY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT ACCOUNTABILITY.

ONE DAY IT WILL BE ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

THIS IS UNFORTUNATELY WHAT HAPPENED.

THE PAIN IS THERE, THREE YEARS OF KILLING, MASS KILLING, TRAGEDIES, TORTURE.

AND IT STILL CONTINUES.

THE DESTRUCTION OF GAZA, UNFORTUNATELY, AND ETHNIC CLEANSING POLICY WHICH IS VERY CLEAR IN THE WEST BANK BY THE NEW ARMY ACCORDING TO THE ISRAELIS, THE NEW TERRORIST ARMY OF THE SETTLERS, HOW THEY START TO PICK THE OLIVES INSTEAD OF CUPPING THE TREES, WHICH IS GOOD.

AND INSTEAD OF KILLING THE SHEEP AND GOATS, THEY STOLE THEM.

AND THE WORLD IS STILL LOOKING AT US.

EVEN THE HEAD OF THE PEACE COUNCIL FORGETS ABOUT IT, NOTHING CHANGED.

VERY DISAPPOINTED BY ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

I BELIEVE WE CONTINUE TO WORK AND TO ASK PEOPLE TO ACT IN ORDER TO STOP THIS OCCUPATION BECAUSE THIS IS THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.

UNFORTUNATELY, AS LONG AS THE OCCUPATION CONTINUES, WE'LL CONTINUE TO SACRIFICE OUR KIDS FROM BOTH SIDES.

OCTOBER 7th PROVED THAT.

IF THERE IS A PEACE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE ISRAELIS AND THE PALESTINIANS --NOT THE ISRAELIS AND SAUDI, OR ISRAELIS AND IRAQIS, ONLY THE PALESTINIANS ARE THE GUARANTEE OF SAFETY.

ONLY THEN WE CAN LIVE IN PEACE, BOTH SIDES, WHICH WE REALLY DESERVE.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU BOTH, THIS IS ALL WONDERFUL TO HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, THERE'S A CONSTITUENCY FOR PEACE AND YOU STILL BELIEVE IN IT DESPITE THE HORROR OF WHAT HAPPENED, THE MASSACRES OF OCTOBER 7th, THE HORRENDOUS WAR AND DEVASTATION ON GAZA, YOU CAN STILL BELIEVE SOMETHING DECENT CAN COME OUT OF THIS, BUT YOU LIVE IN ISRAEL, YOU SEE A TRAUMATIZED PEOPLE, WHO STILL CANNOT STAND WHAT HAPPENED, OBVIOUSLY, THREE YEARS AGO, AND ARE NOT NECESSARILY BOLSTERING THE PEACE CAMP.

TELL US AS YOU HEAD INTO ELECTIONS, WHERE DOES YOUR CAMP STAND?

IS THERE ANY HOPE AT ALL OR ARE PEOPLE MORE BELIEVING THAT WAR AND THE NETANYAHU DOCTRINE WILL KEEP ISRAEL SAFE?

>> IT IS HEARTBREAKING, THIS WORK HAS BECOME MORE AND MORE.

BUT THAT'S THE REASON WE HAVE TO CONTINUE.

I SEE ONE DAY A POLITICAL PEACE AGREEMENT.

AND THEN THE PARENT CIRCLE WILL HAVE TO EARN A RECONCILIATION PROCESS.

THIS MUST SOUND A BIT NAIVE TO YOU, BUT IF I GAVE UP THAT HOPE THERE WOULD BE NO POINT DOING THIS WORK.

AND DESMOND TUTU ALWAYS SAID, IF YOU DON'T THINK PEOPLE CAN CHANGE, STOP DOING THE WORK.

I BELIEVE PEOPLE CAN CHANGE.

WE ARE STILL AT WAR, TO LIVE IN ISRAEL TODAY, I'M SO ASHAMED OF WHAT IS HAPPENING FOR INSTANCE IN THE WEST BANK.

AND WE HAVE TO DRAW ATTENTION TO THAT.

WE HAVE TO DRAW ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT THE SETTLERS ARE RUNNING RAMPANT AND DOING WHAT THEY WANT, AND MANY OF THE ARMY ARE SUPPORTING THEM, BURNING HOUSES, KILLING PEOPLE AND SHEEP, RUINING THE OLIVES.

WHERE HAS THIS BEHAVIOR COME FROM AND HOW CAN WE POSSIBLY ACCEPT IT?

IT'S NOT EASY FOR ME TO SAY THESE THINGS, BUT IF I DON'T TELL THE TRUTH, THERE'S NO POSSIBILITY I COULD MAKE CHANGE BECAUSE IF I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE TO TELL THE TRUTH, THERE CAN BE NO RECONCILIATION.

AND IT'S HEARTBREAKING TO SEE HOW ANGRY PEOPLE ARE HERE.

ALSO HEARTBREAKING TO SEE THE WORLD'S ATTITUDE.

I SPENT THREE MONTHS IN NEW YORK.

PEOPLE ASK WHERE I AM FROM, I COULD EASILY SAY SOUTH AFRICA, BUT I DON'T, THAT'S NOT INTEGRITY.

I SAY I'M FROM ISRAEL.

THERE'S A SILENCE.

LOOK, I'M ISRAELI BUT NOT THE GOVERNMENT.

WE NEED AS LONELY PEACE WORKERS TO HAVE THAT SUPPORT.

NOT TALKING ABOUT EVEN MONEY BUT MORAL SUPPORT.

WE NEED THE WORLD TO STOP IMPORTING OUR CONFLICT AND BECOME PART OF THE SOLUTION.

IT'S TOO LONELY TO DO THIS.

YOU CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE TO FIGHT DAILY AND TO TRY TO CHANGE PEOPLE'S ATTITUDE WHEN THEY ARE SO ANGRY.

AND THE GRIEF ON THE PALESTINIAN SIDE IS SO INTENSE, AS WELL AS HERE.

TODAY I WAS LISTENING TO SOME OF THE MEMBERS FROM THE PARENT CIRCLE TO SEE HOW TRAGIC -- YOU ASKED ABOUT VIVIAN, I LOVED HER.

SHE WAS A REAL PEACE WORKER, AND HER SON IS CONTINUING THE WORK AND NOW ON OUR BOARD.

HOW EXTRAORDINARY IS THAT?

THIS WOMAN, IF SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN HOSTAGE, I PROMISE YOU, SHE WOULD HAVE DONE THINGS AND CHANGED THE WORLD AND COME BACK AND STILL BEEN A PEACE WORKER.

THERE ARE AMONGST THE HOSTAGE WOMEN WHO HAVE CAME BACK FROM HOSTAGE AND ARE WORKING FOR PEACE.

THERE IS HOPE.

WE HAVE TO BRING THAT HOPE TO THE WORLD.

>> WOW.

>> AND THEY HAVE TO STOP IMPORTING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR TELLING US THAT.

THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO KNOW THERE'S STILL A LITTLE FLICKER OF A FLAME BURNING FOR PEACE, INCLUDING AS YOU SAY AMONGST THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN SO VIOLENTLY DESECRATED, REALLY.

BASAM, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, I READ SOMETHING THAT SURPRISED ME P. LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION, PALESTINIAN ELECTIONS END OF NOVEMBER, LEGISLATIVE ELECTIONS.

I READ THERE'S ACTUALLY A BIT OF A MAJORITY, SMALL MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO STILL BELIEVE IN THE TWO- STATE SOLUTION AND DO BELIEVE WHETHER THEY'RE IN GAZA OR WHATEVER, THEY HAVE TO BE ABLE TO NEGOTIATE.

AS YOU'VE SORT OF SAID, A SETTLEMENT WITH ISRAEL.

DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE LEADERS ON THE GROUND NOW TO CONVENE THAT KIND OF POLITICAL CAMPAIGN?

>> TO BE HONEST, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO IS THE PALESTINIAN LEADER.

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

DEPENDS ON THE ISRAELI LEADER BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE KEYS.

THE MOST PEACEFUL PRESIDENT ON EARTH, AND WE CAN SEE THE RESULT, HE DON'T BELIEVE IN RESISTANCE EVEN, NOT IN STRUGGLING.

AND WE CAN SEE THE RESULT.

SO BOTH SIDES, BUT NOT WITH THE ISRAELI SIDE.

ACCORDING TO HOPE OF A SOLUTION, IT'S NOT WRITTEN ANYWHERE WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE KILLING EACH OTHER FOREVER.

IF YOU LOOK BACK AT CONFLICTS AROUND THE WORLD, 80 YEARS AGO, 6 MILLION VICTIMS.

PALESTINIANS DIDN'T KILL 6 MILLION ISRAELIS AND ISRAELIS DIDN'T KILL 6 MILLION PALESTINIANS, THERE'S AMBASSADORS, WE CAN DO IT.

UNTIL IT HAPPENS, IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE.

FOUR YEARS AFTER THE YOM KIPPER WAR, PEACE AGREEMENT BETWEEN EGYPT AND ISRAEL.

WE'LL DO IT THE MINUTE THE ISRAELIS DECIDE WE CANNOT CONTINUE LIVING LIKE THIS.

WE CAN LIVE IN PEACE AND SECURITY, ONE STATE, TWO STATES, FIVE STATES, OTHERWISE WE SHARE THE SAME PIECE OF LAND AS TWO GRAVEYARDS FOR OUR KIDS, FAMILIES AND PEOPLE.

THIS IS WHAT WE SEE.

WE THINK THE COMMON ENEMY BETWEEN THE ISRAELIS AND THE PALESTINIANS IS THE OCCUPATION ITSELF.

WHEN IT ENDS, THERE'S NO REASON TO FIGHT OR KILL EACH OTHER.

WE CAN LIVE TOGETHER OR SIDE BY SIDE AS GOOD NEIGHBORS AND RECOGNIZE EACH OTHER'S HUMAN AND NATIONAL RIGHTS.

WHICH WAS AN EXAMPLE FOR THE OSLO AGREEMENT FOR EXAMPLE.

NO OPPRESSION WITHOUT OCCUPATION.

THIS IS THE MAIN ISSUE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, FINALLY, WHEN YOU TALK TO YOUNG PALESTINIANS TODAY IN WEST BANK OR WHEREVER, WHAT DO THEY SAY TO YOU, BRIEFLY, ABOUT THE FUTURE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S ALSO VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE IT'S NOT TO TEACH THEM, THEY ARE LIVING ON THE GROUND, MOVING BETWEEN AROUND ,000 CHECKPOINTS YOU NEED TO CROSS IN TEN MINUTES.

SOMETIMES IT TAKES TEN HOURS, FIVE OR SIX HOURS.

AT THE SAME TIME, I WAS IN TEL AVIV AND EVERYWHERE IN ISRAEL, THE PALESTINIANS HAVE MORE HOPE THAN THE ISRAELIS, WHICH IS UNBELIEVABLE.

MANY JOIN US FROM GAZA, THE PAIN IS FRESH LIKE THE ISRAELIS, AND YOU SEE THEM FULL OF HOPE FOR THE FUTURE, BUT THEY NEED JUST TO UNDERSTAND THAT BOTH MAJORITIES IN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE WANT PEACE BUT DON'T TRUST EACH OTHER.

TALK TO THEM IN THE MEDIA AND THE LEADERS.

>> LET ME FINALLY ASK ROBBY, YOU SPOKE ABOUT WHEN YOU TRIED TO TELL THE STORY OF PEACE.

IT'S SOMETIMES DIFFICULT.

YOU CALLED IT LONELY.

WHAT SORT OF REACTION DO YOU GET TALKING TO PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE PARENT CIRCLE?

>> WELL, THAT'S WHAT WE DO MAINLY.

AND I'M TOLD DON'T LISTEN TO THAT WOMAN, SHE'S POISONING YOUR MINDS, AND THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE I WANT TO TALK TO.

IT'S NOT ABOUT CLOSING PEOPLE DOWN.

THE BEST LESSON HERE IS TO LEARN HOW TO LISTEN WITH EMPATHY EVEN IF YOU DON'T AGREE.

AND SO, YES, OF COURSE WE FACED ALL OVER THE WORLD AND IN ISRAEL AND IN PALESTINE WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY ANTI WHAT WE'RE DOING.

AND IN MANY WAYS, I UNDERSTAND THAT.

I LOOK AT KIDS IN ISRAEL NOW, MY GRANDCHILDREN, WENT STRAIGHT FROM COVID INTO WAR, ANOTHER WAR, AND THIS IS HOW THEY'VE LIVED SEVERAL YEARS BEFORE OCTOBER WITH COVID.

SO THEY ARE VERY SAD AND HAVE --ARE LACKING IN HOPE IN MANY WAYS.

A COUPLE OF YEARS OF THEIR LIFE, A LOT OF KIDS HAVE BECOME MORE RIGHT WING.

WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE ELECTIONS, ONE CAN ONLY PRAY THERE WILL BE A CHANGE BECAUSE ISRAEL HAS BECOME A PARIAH ALL OVER THE WORLD AND IT BREAKS MY HEART TO SEE THAT ISRAELIS DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE REPERCUSSIONS OF WHAT WE ARE DOING ON THE JEWISH COMMUNITIES ALL OVER THE WORLD.

I WAS JUST IN GERMANY FOR THE ELECTIONS, IN BERLIN, AND THAT'S VERY FRIGHTENING, OF THE FAR LEFT, WHAT THEY THINK OF JEWS.

AND IN SAXONY.

WHO COULD HAVE IMAGINED THAT COULD HAPPEN, AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IN EUROPE IN GENERAL, THIS TEND TOWARDS FASCISM.

WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY, ALL OF US, TO FIND THE LEADERS WHO CAN GET US OUT OF THIS AMAZING MESS.

HOPEFULLY --TAKES OVER THE GOVERNMENT.

SOMETIMES IT'S A BIT OF A HOBSON'S CHOICE, PICK THE BEST OUT OF A BAD BUNCH.

NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT PEACE OR THE OCCUPATION, THE MINUTE THEY DO THAT, THEY LOSE VOTERS.

SO I'M JUST HOPING -- >> YEAH.

>> I'M SO PLEASED THAT MANY COUNTRIES ARE NOT ALLOWING GOODS TO COME FROM THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

IT'S IMPORTANT.

>> THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER STORY, WE COULD TALK MORE ABOUT THAT OF COURSE.

THERE'S A BIG PROBLEM NOW BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENTS OF THE UK AND ISRAEL ON THAT ISSUE.

ROBBY DAMALIN AND BASAM HAMAL EN.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE AND TALKING ABOUT YOUR HOPES.

> >> IN ATTACKING HAMAS, ISRAEL WAS ATTACKING AN IRAN PROXY FORCE AND THE WAR HAS SPREAD ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST TO IRAN ITSELF.

BUT THERE'S NO END IN SIGHT FOR THE CONFLICT.

AMERICAN LEADERSHIP ISN'T EVEN SURE WHO TO TALK TO.

>> THANKS TO THE MEN AND WOMEN OF AMERICA'S ARMED FORCES, DOZENS OF IRAN'S LEADERS HAVE BEEN BLOWN OUT OF EXISTENCE AND STRAIGHT THROUGH TO THE GATES OF HELL.

AS YOU KNOW, THEIR LEADERS ARE GONE, THEIR SECOND GROUP OF LEADERS ARE GONE, AND THE BIGGEST PROBLEM I HAVE IS NOBODY KNOWS WHO THE HELL IS RUNNING THE COUNTRY.

>> AS THE WAR DRAGS ON, ATTENTION IS PULLED AWAY FROM THE ONGOING WAR IN UKRAINE WITH PUTIN DOUBLING DOWN ON HIS WAR PLAN.

FOR YEARS, WENDY SHERMAN WAS CENTRAL TO ISSUES IN GOVERNMENT, LEAD U. S. NEGOTIATOR FOR THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL AND IN 2022 LED TALKS WITH RUSSIA TO TRY TO HEAD OFF PUTIN'S ALL- OUT INVASION, SHE'S JOINING FROM MASSACHUSETTS.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU ON THIS SOBERING DAY.

>> I THINK YOU HEARD SOME OF WHAT ROBBY AND BASAM WERE TELLING ME, THE HEARTFELT NATURE OF WHAT THEY'RE EXPERIENCE AND WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO OPE COMES OUT OF THIS, THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE WHO STILL BELIEVE THEY CAN NEGOTIATE AND DO WHAT YOU TRIED TO DO FOR DECADES, BRING PEACE TO THAT REGION.

>> YES, I WAS VERY HEARTENED THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE, ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS, WHO HAVE HOPE.

WE ALL WANT TO HAVE HOPE TO GET TO PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND IN THE WORLD.

AS YOU POINT OUT, WE'RE LIVING IN A TIME I DON'T THINK ANY OF US QUITE EXPECTED WITH THE PUTIN'S ILLEGAL AND HORRIFIC INVASION OF UKRAINE CONTINUING, UKRAINIANS BEING EXTRAORDINARILY RESILIENT AND CONTINUING TO WAGE A WAR AGAINST THIS HORRIBLE LEADER.

WE HAVE THE IRAN WAR CONTINUING.

REALLY IS NO WAR, NO PEACE.

WE HEAR PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING AFTER U. S. MIDTERMS HE MIGHT RETURN TO MILITARY ACTION USING VERY VIOLENT WORDS, ANNIHILATION, AT THE U. N. , IN HIS REMARKS IN BALTIMORE YESTERDAY, TALKING ABOUT BLOWING IRAN TO HELL.

WORDS LIKE THIS REALLY DON'T HELP, DON'T HELP US TO GET TO THAT PEACE, AND I THINK WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE ISRAELI ELECTION AT THE END OF THIS MONTH, WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE PALESTINIAN LEGISLATIVE ELECTIONS, AND OF COURSE WHAT WILL HAPPEN HERE IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE POLICY MADE INDEED CHANGE OR THERE WILL BE PUSHBACK TO WHAT THE WHITE HOUSE IS TRYING TO DO.

I THINK MOST IMPORTANTLY, IN THE UNITED STATES, AND IN EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, PEOPLE DO WANT SECURITY.

THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

IT'S HARD TO HAVE ECONOMIC GROWTH, IT'S HARD TO HAVE THE WORLD YOU WANT FOR YOUR CHILDREN WITHOUT SECURITY.

BUT IT CANNOT ONLY BE ABOUT SECURITY, IT HAS TO BE ABOUT PUTTING IN PLACE THOSE POLICIES THAT WILL HELP BRING THE PEACE THAT WE JUST HEARD FROM YOUR GUESTS.

>> SO LOOK THAT, LEADS ME CLEARLY TO STAY ON THE ISRAEL/PALESTINE ISSUE.

YOU KNOW IT IS TOTALLY FLIPPED IN TERMS OF THE POLITICAL BALANCE IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S REALLY PART OF A LOT OF THE POLITICAL ELECTIONS AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ELECTED BASED ON THEIR POLICY TOWARDS ALL OF THIS.

I SPOKE TO AN AMERICAN JOURNALIST, OF I BELIEVE PALESTINIAN BACKGROUND.

HIS NEW BOOK "CROSSING THE RED LINE. "

HE WROTE ABOUT YOUR ADMINISTRATION, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

YEARS OF REPORTING ON THE TEAM'S GAZA DECISIONS CONVINCED ME IT'S HARROWING MISMANAGEMENT AND WILLFUL BLINDNESS, SOME GOOD INTENTIONS, BUT BLINDED BY TIMIDITY, AND STAGGERING HUBRIS, CHOICE BY CHOICE A MORAL AND STRATEGIC DISASTER, BUT NOT A MASTER PLAN.

DO YOU RECOGNIZE EVEN SOME OF THAT?

>> NOT TO EXCUSE MYSELF IN ME WAY, I'LL COME BACK IN A MOMENT.

BUT I LEFT AFTER 2 1/2 YEARS.

I WAS NOT THERE OCTOBER 7th AND THE HORRIFYING SLAUGHTER IN GAZA.

BUT YES, I THINK THAT THE WORLD HAD CHANGED.

THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, ALTHOUGH STEEPED IN HISTORY AND THE PRESIDENT HAVING ENORMOUS FOREIGN POLICY EXPERIENCE, REALLY DID NOT HAVE THE FINGERTIPS FOR UNDERSTANDING HOW THE WORLD HAS CHANGED.

AND NEEDED TO ACT WITH MORE COURAGE AND DECISIVENESS.

THAT WAS TRUE IN UKRAINE IN TERMS OF GIVING WEAPONS TO UKRAINE SO THEY COULD PROSECUTE THE WAR THAT WAS NECESSARY, PUSHING BACK AGAINST PUTIN.

AND IT WAS TRUE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, NOT PUSHING BACK NOT ONLY AGAINST THE CURRENT ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

NOT THE ISRAELIS BUT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT, BUT ALSO IMPLORING ALL OF THE GULF ARAB PARTNERS TO DO WHAT THEY NEEDED TO DO TO ENSURE A PALESTINIAN FUTURE.

IT IS CERTAINLY SOMETHING ISRAEL HAS TO TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR TO ENSURE THEIR OWN PEACE AND SECURITY, BUT IT IS ALSO A RESPONSIBILITY OF THE GULF ARAB STATES TO BE THERE FOR THE PALESTINIANS, AND THEY HAVE OFTEN NOT DONE SO.

>> YES, AND I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU AGAIN REGARDING THE U. S. , THERE ARE BOOKS COMING OUT ON THIS ANNIVERSARY, AND OFFICIALS WHO HAVE LEFT THE ADMINISTRATION.

CLEARLY AFTER TRUMP WON IN 2024, BRETT McGURK, A NATIONAL SECURITY OFFICIAL, WHO HAD GIVEN SPEECHES ON THIS ISSUE NOT LONG BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, NEVER MENTIONING THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE.

JAKE SULLIVAN SAID TWO WEEKS BEFORE THAT EVERYTHING WAS SURPRISINGLY QUIET, PARAPHRASING, IN THAT REGION, THEN IT BLEW UP.

BUT I THINK IT WAS IN HIS BOOK, BRENT TALKING ABOUT LISTENING TO A CONVERSATION IN OVAL OFFICE, BIBI MAN, WHAT THE EFF ARE YOU DOING, DEMANDING WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN STAFF WERE KILLED.

YOU THINK I'M SANTA CLAUS?

ESSENTIALLY SAYING I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU THE WEAPONS TO DO THIS.

THEN NOT FOLLOWING THROUGH ON THAT.

WHAT DOES THE BEHIND-THE- SCENES STORIES TELLING TELL YOU?

PEOPLE TRYING TO COVER THEIR BEHINDS OR PEOPLE SAYING THERE WAS A PROBLEM, WE DIDN'T FOLLOW THROUGH?

>> I DON'T KNOW WHAT PEOPLE'S INTENTIONS ARE HERE.

I THINK THAT PEOPLE TRY TO SHARE HISTORY AS BEST THEY KNOW IT.

WHAT I THINK IS MOST IMPORTANT, CHRISTIANE, AND WE'RE SEEING IT PLAYING OUT IN THESE ELECTIONS, IS THAT THE WORLD HAS CHANGED.

THE UNITED STATES HAS CHANGED.

THERE WILL BE VERY VIGOROUS DEBATES IN THE NEXT CONGRESS ABOUT MILITARY ASSISTANCE AND AID TO ISRAEL, SELLING WEAPONS TO ISRAEL.

THERE WILL BE VERY VIGOROUS DEBATE ABOUT THE SETTLEMENT ACTIVITY IN THE WEST BANK, AND I CERTAINLY HOPE THERE WILL BE ONGOING DISCUSSIONS IN ISRAEL ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY FOR WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th.

IT'S A CENTRAL ISSUE IN THE CAMPAIGN TAKING PLACE IN ISRAEL RIGHT NOW.

I THINK WE WILL SEE A LOT OF CHANGE COMING, NOT JUST IN THE UNITED KINGDOM WHERE YOU SIT, BUT IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL, TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD HAS CHANGED.

THE YOUNGER GENERATION, IT'S TRUE IN MY FAMILY, MAY SUPPORT OF COURSE A JEWISH STATE, BUT AS VIGOROUSLY SUPPORT A FUTURE PALESTINIAN STATE SO BOTH CAN LIVE IN PEACE AND SECURITY, TO DIMINISH THE ANTI-SEMITISM, THE ISLAMOPHOBIA IN THE WORLD, TO COME TO A NEW UNDERSTANDING OF WHERE WE NEED TO BE AND HOW WE SHOULD GET THERE.

I HOPE ALL THE BOOKS, WHATEVER THE INTENTIONS, HELP TO HAVE THAT VIGOROUS DEBATE.

>> IT'S GOOD TO GET IT OUT IN THE LIGHT FOR SURE.

BUT YOU CAN DRAW A STRAIGHT LINE FROM OCTOBER 7th HORRORS TO THE WAR ON IRAN.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT IS GOING?

WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT IT, THE PRESIDENT KEEPS SAYING HE'S GOING TO DO IT MAYBE BEFORE THE MIDTERMS, MAYBE AFTER, DESCRIBING THE IRANIAN LEADERS WHO THEY WHACKED, BASICALLY, ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES WHACKED ALL THESE LEADERS, WHO SOME OF THEM WERE PART OF THE GROUP YOU WERE NEGOTIATING WITH.

SO WHERE DO YOU THINK THERE MIGHT BE AN OPENING IN THE CURRENT MOMENT WHERE IRAN KEEPS ESCALATING TO END THIS.

AND HOW DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO END?

>> SO I THINK THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS MISUNDERSTOOD FROM THE START THE CULTURE AND HISTORY OF IRAN.

I DO KNOW ABOUT THE FOREIGN MINISTER, MY COUNTERPART DURING NEGOTIATIONS, AND IRAN AS YOU KNOW VERY WELL, CHRISTIANE, GIVEN YOUR OWN HISTORY, IS A CULTURE OF RESISTANCE.

THAT'S WHAT THE 1979 REVOLUTION WAS ABOUT.

AND THEY ARE NOT ABOUT TO CAPITULATE.

THEY'RE WILLING TO SACRIFICE THEIR OWN PEOPLE TO NOT ONLY STAY IN POWER BUT RESIST ANY KIND OF CAPITULATION.

WE'VE HEARD TINY PIECES OF POTENTIAL FOR ONGOING NEGOTIATIONS.

WE'VE SEEN OTHER COUNTRIES TRYING TO MEDIATE THOSE NEGOTIATIONS.

I CAN ONLY HOPE THAT BACK CHANNELS WILL CONTINUE AND PEOPLE WILL PULL THE STRING THAT MIGHT NEED TO NEGOTIATION.

BECAUSE I CAN ASSURE YOU, THERE WILL NOT BE A RAPID CAPITULATION BY IRAN NO MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE WANT IT TO HAPPEN.

AND AMERICAN CITIZENS, AS WE'LL SEE IN THE ELECTION, HAVE HAD IT WITH RISING PRICES, INABILITY TO BUY A HOUSE.

I'M LIVING IN WESTERN MASSACHUSETTS AND EVERYBODY HAS TO DRIVE TO GET ANYWHERE, YOU DON'T WALK.

I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO DO DAY-TO-DAY WORK DO GIVEN THE HIGH PRICE OF GASOLINE.

DIESEL IS UNDERMINING OUR FARMERS AND CREATING WORLDWIDE ECONOMIC PROBLEMS.

SO I THINK THIS ELECTION HERE, ELECTION IN ISRAEL, LEGISLATIVE ELECTIONS IN PALESTINE, ND AS WAS POINTED OUT, ELECTIONS IN EUROPE, WHICH IS CONSEQUENTIAL, AND ABOUT ANOTHER BIG ISSUE FOR EVERYONE, MIGRATION, WILL SEE ENORMOUS CHANGE.

I HOPE IT'S A CHANGE TOWARDS PEACE, NOT TOWARD MORE CONFLICT.

>> YEAH, THAT'S THE HOPE, BUT THERE'S VERY HARD POSITIONS DEVELOPING.

YOU MENTIONED IN EUROPE.

A LOT OF THEM ABOUT MIGRATION BUT ALSO THE ECONOMY, THE EFFECTS OF THE WAR THAT RUSSIA, INVASION OF UKRAINE AND IT'S DESTABILIZED SO MUCH OF EUROPE.

HOW DO YOU THINK THIS ADMINISTRATION PARTICULARLY AFTER THE MIDTERMS WOULD BE BEST PLACED TO ACTUALLY END THE WAR AND USE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BULLY PULPIT AND HIS RELATION TO PUTIN WHO HE'S INVITING TO THE UNITED STATES TO MAKE IT CLEAR THIS CAN'T GO ON.

PUTIN IS SHOWING NO SIGN OF UNDERSTANDING HE'S LOSING TERRITORY AND IS NOT WINNING RIGHT NOW DESPITE THE HORROR HE'S INFLICTING ON CIVILIANS ACROSS UKRAINIAN CITIES.

>> WELL THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS AT HAND THE ABILITY TO IMPOSE MORE SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA, BE VERY TOUGH ON RUSSIA.

WE HAVE ADDITIONAL ISSUE TODAY OF A POTENTIAL PLAGUE PERHAPS AND THE PRESIDENT SAYING HE'S TALKING TO PUTIN TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON ALONG WITH THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION.

AND THERE'S A LOT GOING ON.

IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS, AN ARTICLE BY JULIE SMITH, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO NATO, TALKING ABOUT HYBRID WARFARE BY PUTIN, TRYING TO ROIL ALL THE COUNTRIES, ENGAGE ALL OF EUROPE AND PUT PRESSURE ON EVERYONE.

WE ALL OUGHT TO BE WORKING TOGETHER TO PUT PRESSURE ON PUTIN.

JULIE LAYS OUT WAYS TO DO THAT.

THE WORLD HAS NOT REALLY COME TOGETHER TO PUT THAT PRESSURE ON PUTIN.

I GIVE UKRAINE ENORMOUS RESPECT FOR ITS RESISTANCE.

I'M HOPING WE GET TO A BETTER PLACE.

>> SO DO WE ALL.

WENDY SHERMAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

> >> PRESS FREEDOM IS AT A 25-YEAR LOW ACCORDING TO REPORTERS WITHOUT BORDERS.

IN THE ONGOING BATTLE WITH THE WHITE HOUSE, JOURNALISTS WERE BANNED FROM AIR FORCE ONE, THEY FACE INCREASINGLY HOSTILE ENVIRONMENTS.

"WASHINGTON POST" JOURNALIST JASON RIZAON WAS ABDUCTED AND TALKS ABOUT THE PRESS FREEDOM AROUND THE WORLD.

>> THIS JANUARY, IT'S BEEN TEN YEARS SINCE YOU WERE FREED FROM AN IRANIAN PRISON WHERE YOU SPENT 544 DAYS AFTER --WHEN YOU WERE WORKING FOR "THE WASHINGTON POST" AND YOU STILL ARE.

YOU'VE MADE ADVOCATING FOR THE SAFETY AND FREEDOM OF JOURNALISTS PART OF YOUR LIFE'S MISSION AND WORK.

I WONDER, WHEN YOU LOOK ACROSS THE LANDSCAPE, DOMESTICALLY H INTERNATIONALLY, WHAT DO YOU SEE WHEN IT COMES TO HOW JOURNALISTS ARE TREATED AND HOW DIFFICULT THE JOB IS BECOMING?

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.

WHEN I FIRST CAME BACK FROM THE EXPERIENCE, AND DECIDED TO STAY IN JOURNALISM, IT WASN'T TO REPORT ON CASES OF JOURNALISTS UNDER ATTACK, ATTACKS ON THE FREE PRESS BUT I SAW SO MANY IN DIFFERENT PLACES, REPORTED AS ONE-OFFS.

JOURNALIST ABDUCTED OR ARRESTED IN MYANMAR, ANOTHER MURDERED IN SLOVAKIA.

BUT AS YOU LOOKED AT CASES AS PART OF LARGER TRENDS IN COUNTRIES ALREADY AUTOCRACIES OR SLIDING DOWN AN AUTHORITARIAN PATH, IT BECAME CLEAR THAT LOTS OF GOVERNMENTS WERE MIMICKING EACH OTHER'S TREATMENT OF THE PRESS.

I WISH I COULD SAY MY REPORTING ON THESE CASES AND TRENDS HAS MADE A DIFFERENCE, BUT IT'S ONLY GOTTEN WORSE.

>> THREE YEARS AFTER OCTOBER 7, 2023, AND THAT PARTICULAR CONFLICT, THE NUMBER OF MEDIA WORKERS KILLED HAS SURPASSED 247 AND COUNTING.

THAT'S A BIG NUMBER, BUT WHAT IS THE STORY THAT NUMBER DOESN'T TELL?

>> I THINK FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE LOST ALMOST ALL WINDOWS INTO GAZA.

SIMILAR SITUATION IN IRAN AND OTHER PLACES IN THE WORLD, BUT THE EXTREME VACUUM WE ARE OPERATING IN WHEN IT COMES TO REPORTING ON GAZA IS MAKING IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND IN A FULSOME WAY WHAT THE UNITED STATES' ROLE WAS THERE AND SHOULD BE OR SHOULDN'T BE.

WHAT SORT OF INJUSTICES AND POTENTIAL CRIMES ARE BEING PERPETRATED AGAINST THE PEOPLE OF GAZA BY ISRAELI ATTACKS.

AND IT MAKES IT REALLY DIFFICULT FOR US TO HAVE AN HONEST CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW TO LESSEN THE DEVASTATION, SUPPORT THE RECONSTRUCTION, AND WHAT THINGS WILL LOOK LIKE MOVING FORWARD.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE FREEDOM OF THE PRESS AND MEDIA TO OPERATE IN THESE PLACES IS SO FUNDAMENTAL TO OUR ABILITY TO PROPERLY UNDERSTAND.

AND WE'VE BEEN ROBBED OF THAT IN THIS SITUATION.

THE NUMBER OF MEDIA WORKERS KILLED THERE IN THE HUNDREDS GOES FAR BEYOND ANY OTHER CONFLICT WE'VE EVER DOCUMENTED BEFORE.

AND THE TRUTH IS, EVEN BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, THERE WAS THE KILLING OF PALESTINIAN AMERICAN JOURNALIST, WHICH WE KNOW WAS DONE BY THE IBF, WHICH WE KNOW THROUGH VARIOUS INVESTIGATIONS WAS AN TARGETED KILLING OF A JOURNALIST WHO WAS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN AND THERE'S BEEN NO ACCOUNTABILITY IN THAT CASE.

HOW CAN WE EXPECT ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE CASES OF SO MANY OTHERS WHEN EVEN A U. S. CITIZEN'S DEATH IS NOT ACCOUNTED FOR.

>> AND IBF CHIEF SPOKESMAN SAID ABOUT THAT KILLING, WE'RE VERY SORRY OF THE DEATH IN ISRAEL.

WE VALUE OUR DEMOCRACY AND IN DEMOCRACY WE SEE HIGH VALUE IN JOURNALISM AND A FREE PRESS.

WE WANT JOURNALISTS TO FEEL SAFE IN ISRAEL, ESPECIALLY IN WAR TIME, EVEN IF THEY CRITICIZE US.

THIS WAS A WHILE BACK.

YOU'RE REMINDING PEOPLE OF YOUR COLLEAGUE, JAMAL KHASHOGGI, AND HIS MANNER OF DEATH AT THE DIRECTION OF WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ONE OF OUR CLOSEST ALLIES.

>> TWO OF OUR CLOSEST ALLIES, ISRAEL AND SAUDI ARABIA.

AND I THINK THE MESSAGE THESE KILLINGS SEND TO OTHER LEADERS, FRIEND AND FOE ALIKE, YOU CAN KILL A JOURNALIST, YOU CAN KILL AN AMERICAN JOURNALIST, A JOURNALIST WORKING FOR AMERICAN MEDIA.

YOU CAN ABDUCT THEM, TAKE THEM HOSTAGE AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY A PRICE FOR IT.

I THINK THAT'S THE WRONG MESSAGE TO SEND >> THIS IS SOMETHING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE NETANYAHU ADMINISTRATION TALKS ABOUT, TRYING TO INCREASE ACCESS FOR JOURNALISTS.

BECAUSE THE ISRAELI POSITION IS IT'S SAFETY AND SECURITY, YOU DO THIS YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN AND I CAN'T PROTECT YOU.

YOU MIGHT BE IN HARM'S WAY.

>> YOU KNOW, IT RESONATES WITH ME VERY CLEARLY.

I CAN REMEMBER TIMES WHEN I WAS REPORTING INSIDE OF IRAN, WITH FULL PERMISSION AND TRANSPARENCY, AND BEING TOLD BY IRANIAN AUTHORITIES, YOU SHOULD STOP REPORTING FOR A WHILE AND LEAVE THE COUNTRY, WE CAN'T GUARANTEE YOUR SAFETY AND SECURITY.

WE'RE NOT THREATENING YOU BUT THIS CAN BE A DANGEROUS AND VOLATILE PLACE.

IT'S A SIMILAR ATTITUDE, IDEA IS INTIMIDATE PEOPLE INTO SILENCE.

AND WHEN THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO BE SILENCED, OBSCURE THE REALITIES ON THE GROUND IN OTHER WAYS.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S AN IMPORTANT CONVERSATION TO HAVE WITHIN THE MEDIA, THE RISKS POSED TO JOURNALISTS ARE DIFFERENT THAN THEY WERE TEN YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS ABDUCTED.

THE NUMBER OF INSTANCES, ACTS OF VIOLENCE, USE OF HEAVY FIREPOWER AGAINST JOURNALISTS, ABDUCTIONS, LAW FARE, ALL HAVE INCREASED IMMEASURABLY.

NEWS ORGANIZATIONS HAVE TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE WILLING TO TAKE THOSE RISKS TO PUT PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, BUT THE CALCULATIONS HAVE TO BE DIFFERENT THAN THEY WERE BEFORE BECAUSE IT'S A MUCH RISKIER BUSINESS.

THAT SMACKS TO ME AS KIND OF AN EXCUSE BY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO KEEP PEOPLE OUT, AND ALSO TO FURTHER ABSOLVE THEMSELVES OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE DEATHS OF THESE JOURNALISTS.

>> THE COMMITTEE TO PROTECT JOURNALISTS SAYS MORE JOURNALISTS DIED IN 2025 THAN ANY YEAR IN THE THREE DECADES THEY'VE BEEN KEEPING TRACK.

YOU ARE ON SOMETHING CALLED THE FREEDOM DESK AT "THE WASHINGTON POST. "

WHAT IS IT AND WHY DOES "THE WASHINGTON POST" DO IT?

>> PART OF WHAT I TRIED TO DO THROUGH PRESS FREEDOM INITIATIVES IS TRY TO EMPOWER EXILED JOURNALISTS.

PEOPLE WORKING IN COUNTRIES LIKE IRAN, GAZA, CHINA, RUSSIA, INDIA, WHERE IT'S NO LONGER HOSPITABLE TO BE A JOURNALIST ON THE GROUND.

THESE ARE PEOPLE WITH DEEP INSIGHT, CONTACTS, EXPERIENCE.

LET THEM HELP US TELL THE STORY OF THEIR HOMELANDS, RATHER THAN RELYING ON SECONDHAND ACCOUNTS OR PARACHUTING PEOPLE IN FOR BRIEF PERIODS OF REPORTING TIME.

WE PUT OUT A NEWSLETTER A COUPLE TIMES A WEEK TO HIGHLIGHT THE CASES.

AND THEN A PODCAST THAT'S CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE ON THE FRONT LINES OF THE FIGHT FOR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

WE'LL HAVE AN EPISODE COMING UP WITH NOBEL LAUREATE AND MANY OTHERS, GERSHWITZ WAS ON IT.

TRYING TO RAISE THE LEVEL TO PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS.

>> HE CAME OUT WITH A BOOK RECENTLY.

A "WALL STREET JOURNAL" CORRESPOND, ARRESTED IN RUSSIA IN MARCH OF 2023 UNDER ESPIONAGE CHARGES AND FREED AFTER 491 DAYS I THINK IN DETENTION THERE, PART OF A PRISONER EXCHANGE.

BUT I WONDER, YOU HAVE THIS CONVERSATION WITH HIM.

YOU TWO HAVE A VERY UNIQUE OVERLAP OF LIFE EXPERIENCE.

WHAT SIMILARITIES DID YOU SEE IN HIS STORY?

WHAT WAS SO DIFFERENT?

>> THERE WERE SO MANY SIMILARITIES IN THE WINDOW DRESSING OF OUR CASES.

RIGHT?

WE ARE ABDUCTED, TOLD WE'RE ACCUSED OF ESPIONAGE, THROWN INTO ISOLATION IMPRISONED.

SO MANY ASPECTS OF CONFINEMENT AND THE QUESTIONS THAT ONE HAS WHEN THEY ARE VERY SUDDENLY THRUST INTO AN EXPERIENCE LIKE THAT, CUT OFF FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD, WAS SO SIMILAR TO MY OWN.

WHAT WAS REALLY DIFFERENT THOUGH WAS EVAN SEEMED TO HAVE A VERY CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

HE WAS FODDER FOR A POTENTIAL PRISONER SWAP.

IN MY CASE, IT TOOK MANY MONTHS FOR THAT TO BECOME CLEAR TO ME.

PART OF THAT, IN THE DECADE IN BETWEEN, THERE ARE SO MANY OF THESE CASES.

IRAN DOES IT, RUSSIA DOES IT, CHINA DOES IT, VENEZUELA DOES IT, SO MANY DOING IT TO EXERT PRESSURE OVER U. S. WITH A JOURNALIST, TAKE SOMEONE OF PERCEIVED HIGH VALUE, THAT WILL BE OF INTEREST TO THE U. S. GOVERNMENT IN A HOSTAGE TRADE BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH PUBLIC OUTCRY, BUT ALSO HAS A CHILLING EFFECT ON THE JOURNALISTS ON THE GROUND.

IF WE CAN DO THIS TO THE CORRESPONDENT OF THE "WASHINGTON POST" OR THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL," WE CAN DO IT TO THE JOURNALIST FOR THE LOCAL PAPER.

>> THEY'RE USING THE COUNTRY'S DISINFORMATION LAW TO DETAIN JOURNALISTS.

IS THAT A MODEL THAT CAN BE REPLICATED OR SOMETHING THEY'RE LOOKING AT THE UNITED STATES FOR AS A TEMPLATE?

>> WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THIS IDEA OF FAKE NEWS DID NOT START WITH DONALD TRUMP.

BUT HE DEFINITELY GAVE IT A LOT OF OXYGEN IN OUR NATIONAL CONVERSATION.

WHEN YOU HEAR SOMEONE IN A LEADERSHIP POSITION TALKING ABOUT FAKE NEWS, ACCUSING A REPORT OF BEING FAKE NEWS, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THIS IS JUST SHORTHAND FOR COVERAGE OF ME AND MY CRONIES THAT I DON'T LIKE, RIGHT?

THE EXPOSING OF INFORMATION OF WRONGDOINGS THAT WE WOULD RATHER KEEP SUPPRESSED.

THESE KIND OF LAWS LIKE THE ONE IN TURKIYE ARE GAINING A LOT OF TRACTION IN COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

DEALT WITH A LOT OF SIMILAR ACCUSATIONS.

THEY HAD LAWS ON THE BOOKS IN THE PHILIPPINES AROUND THAT, SO TRIED TO GET HER ON TAX EVASION AND OTHER TYPES OF FINANCIAL CHARGES.

THE IDEA IS TO --TO COMMIT WHAT WE CALL LAW FARE AGAINST THESE INDIVIDUALS.

PUT THEM ON FRIVOLOUS TRIALS THAT EITHER BANKRUPT THEM OR TAKE UP SO MUCH OF THEIR TIME THEY'RE UNABLE TO CONTINUE TO REPORT.

OR FRANKLY GET TIRED OF DOING IT.

WE'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> AND JUST RECENTLY, HAD PRESIDENT BE ABLE TO KICK CNN AND MSNOW OUT OF THE PRESS POOL.

>> THESE ARE THINGS WE NEED TO TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY.

THERE'S A REASON THAT THE FREEDOM OF THE PRESS IS INSHRINED IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS AS LITERALLY THE FIRST AMENDMENT TO WHAT WAS ALREADY A STRONG DOCTRINE.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO TAKE ANY ONE OF THESE THREATS TO OUR ABILITY TO COVER THE WHITE HOUSE OR ANYWHERE ELSE VERY SERIOUSLY.

THAT BEING SAID, THESE THREATS ARE STILL NOWHERE NEAR THE LEVEL OF WHAT PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING IN RUSSIA, CHINA, IRAN, SO MANY OTHER PLACES AROUND THE WORLD.

>> YOUR COLLEAGUE HANNAH'S DEVICES WERE SEIZED BY THE FBI, EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS NOT THE ACTUAL TARGET.

REFRESH US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT CASE.

WHAT DID THE ADMINISTRATION SAY ABOUT IT?

AND THEN WHAT EFFECT IT MIGHT HAVE.

BECAUSE I LOOK AT THIS, SAY THIS IS A REPORTER FROM ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL PRESS ORGANIZATIONS IN AMERICA.

>> YOU KNOW, THE IDEA BEING EARLY THIS YEAR, SHE AND OTHERS WERE WORKING ON A SERIES OF STORIES ABOUT WHISTLEBLOWERS IN THE GOVERNMENT.

THE FBI SHOWED UP AT HER HOUSE, SEIZED HER DEVICES, MADE IT CLEAR TO HER SHE WAS NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE INVESTIGATION, SOME OF HER SOURCES WERE.

AND YOU KNOW, THE LEGAL DISPUTE IS ONGOING.

SO I THINK THIS NOTION THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CAN INTERVENE ON THE WORKINGS OF THE FREE PRESS IS SOMETHING THAT NO AMERICAN SHOULD ABIDE BY SILENTLY.

IT'S AN INTEGRAL PART OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A DEMOCRACY, THE ABILITY OF NEWS ORGANIZATIONS TO REPORT, TO PROTECT THEIR SOURCES IN THE ATTEMPT TO HOLD POWER TO ACCOUNT.

THIS IS A CLEAR EXAMPLE OF THAT.

AND IF THEY DO IT ONCE, THERE'S NO STOPPING THEM DOING IT AGAIN.

>> WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE COST OF DECREASED JOURNALISM PRACTICED IN ALL THESE DIFFERENT PLACES AROUND THE WORLD?

INCLUDING PERHAPS THE UNITED STATES.

>> THE FIRST PIECE OF IT IS --IT BECOMES MORE AND MORE DIFFICULT TO HOLD POWER TO ACCOUNT WHEN THERE AREN'T JOURNALISTS THERE TO COVER THE GOINGS ON OF A STATE AND SOCIETY.

SECOND PIECE IS REALLY THE HUMAN UNDERSTANDING PART.

I WENT TO IRAN WITH THE BASIC PREMISE THAT THIS COUNTRY THAT I HAPPEN TO HAVE FAMILY ROOTS IN, MY FATHER WAS FROM IRAN, MY MOM CAME FROM THE MIDWEST.

I HAD GROWN UP IN A PERIOD OF TIME THAT ENMITY BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES WAS SO SEVERE IT SEEMED ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR AMERICANS TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND THE POINTS OF VIEW OF ORDINARY IRANIANS.

AS A STAND-IN FOR THE EXPERIENCE, LIVED EXPERIENCE OF IRANIAN PEOPLE, ALL WE HAD WERE PROCLAMATIONS OF THE CLERICAL LEADERSHIP OF THAT COUNTRY.

I BELIEVED WE COULD GO DEEPER AND EXPLAIN WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A PERSON ON THE GROUND IN THAT COUNTRY UNDER THE YOKE OF A REPRESSIVE SYSTEM, AND ALSO HEAVILY IMPACTED BY AN AGGRESSIVE FOREIGN POLICY FROM THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

AND I THINK WE DID THAT.

I THINK OTHERS HAVE DONE THAT.

AND IT'S REALLY SAD TO ME THAT SINCE MY OWN ARREST, WE'VE LOST SO MANY OF THAT ACCESS.

TO ME THAT'S A VERY KIND OF ILLUMINATING EXAMPLE OF WHAT WE LOSE.

WE NEED THAT ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD TO BE INFORMED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS OVER THERE AND RIGHT HERE.

RIGHT?

THE IDEA OF JOURNALISM, THE IMPORTANCE OF JOURNALISM, IS TO HELP KEEP AN ELECTORATE INFORMED, RIGHT?

TO MAKE WISE CHOICES.

IF WE'RE NOT ABLE TO DO THAT IN PLACES FAR AND WIDE, WE CAN'T CLAIM TO BE INFORMED PEOPLE.

>> JASON REZAIAN, THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANKS.

>> I COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH JASON THERE.

FINALLY, ONE OF THE LAST STARS OF HOLLYWOOD'S GOLDEN AGE, EVA MARIE SAINT, HAS DIED AT 102.

SHE ROSE TO FAME WITH HER ROLE IN "ON THE WATERFRONT" WITH MARLON BRANDO, EARNED HER AN OSCAR.

IN 2009 SHE REFLECTED ON WORKING ON HITCHCOCK'S "NORTH BY NORTHWEST" OPPOSITE KAYLA CARY GRANT.

>> IT WAS SHEER JOY, PEOPLE I WAS WORKING WITH, MR.

HITCHCOCK, CARY, THE REST OF THE CAST.

WE HAD SUCH A GOOD TIME.

I DON'T REMEMBER ONE MOMENT OF ANGST, AS THEY WOULD SAY.

>> HOW WONDERFUL, IN A CAREER SPANNING NINE DECADES, SHE CONTINUED TO WORK INTO HER 90s.

CYBIL SHEPHERD'S MOTHER IN "MOONLIGHTING. "

> >> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER.

THANKS FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

BYE-BYE FROM LONDON.