GEOFF BENNETT: One of the country's# highest-ranking Catholic leaders and a## top ally of Pope Leo is sharply criticizing the# Trump administration's immigration enforcement,## calling ICE a lawless organization.

During an interfaith service this week,# Cardinal Joseph Tobin, the head of the## Archdiocese of Newark, urged members of the# church to pressure lawmakers to block funding## for ICE.

His remarks come after the deaths of# Alex Pretti and Renee Nicole Good, and after## the detention of Liam Conejo Ramos, a 5-year-old# boy who was taken into custody by federal agents## after arriving home from preschool and sent with# his father to a family detention center in Texas.

For more now, we're joined# by Cardinal Joseph Tobin.

Thanks for being with us.

CARDINAL JOSEPH TOBIN, Archbishop# of Newark: Good ev.. GEOFF BENNETT: Before speaking out, I imagine# you must have weighe.. What specific moral and theological convictions# ultimately compelled you to speak publicly?

CARDINAL JOSEPH TOBIN: I think the principle# motivator was a concern for the common good.

In the Catholic way of thinking and# approaching social-moral questions,## it's not simply the vindication of# competing rights, but it's rather the## preservation of the common good.

And so to# look at how the actions in Minneapolis or## anywhere else affect the common good, those are# people like whom you mentioned, the refugees,## people without legal status, as well# as the citizens of the United States.

GEOFF BENNETT: And you have# called not just for prayer,## but for political action, calling for# the defunding of ICE, as we mentioned.

What concrete changes do you envision?

CARDINAL JOSEPH TOBIN: Well, I think what# we want to do is -- as much as possible, is## use as a principal motivator# the human dignity of people.

And I think what I was calling for and I# still call for and will call for is the## recognition of the dignity of human beings,# no matter what their legal status may be.

GEOFF BENNETT: How do you reconcile this call to# push back against actions you believe are unjust## with the church's teaching and the Scripture's# teaching of respect for government authority?

CARDINAL JOSEPH TOBIN: Well,# I think that we pray for## our government officials.

And as# St.

Paul says in First Timothy,## we pray that in order that we can live tranquil# and decent lives and following our values.

And so we not only pray for ourselves, but# we pray for others, because we recognize,## in human dignity, the dignity of especially people# who don't -- do not necessarily look like us.

GEOFF BENNETT: In your message, you also# invoked the rise of authoritarianism.## Do you believe the country is headed in that# direction or that we're presently there?

And,## if so, what are the biggest moral# choices facing Americans right now?

CARDINAL JOSEPH TOBIN: Well, I# think we have to ask ourselves## about the ongoing discord within our# society and ask what the roots are.

We also have to ask ourselves, as Americans,## where do we want our country to go?

What# do we want it to be, both here within our## national borders and in the community of# nations?

These are questions that require,## I think, respectful listening to each other# and also the freedom to express our opinions.

GEOFF BENNETT: Separate from the moral# question, there is the political question.## And you could argue that President Trump won# the Electoral College, he won the popular vote,## he won every battleground state running# on tougher immigration enforcement and## that lax enforcement under the Biden# administration caused real harms.

CARDINAL JOSEPH TOBIN: Well, I'd like# to make it clear that I'm not endorsing## anybody's political program or even# that -- the values of a movement.

Rather, I think what we need to do is see what's# happening in front of us and then recall what## I think is a fundamental value for# any of us with faith, without faith.

I## really hope that the recognition of the# human dignity of others is important.

And when we see that dignity# violated sometimes in a very## egregious and even fatal manner,# then we have to say something.

GEOFF BENNETT: As a faith leader looking at this# moment in American life marked by deep turmoil,## but also by people coming together in# unexpected ways, do you see signs of hope?

CARDINAL JOSEPH TOBIN: I really# believe that, without hope,## we're truly in a miserable# state.

There has to be hope.

And part of my hope is that, when people recognize# the humanity of the other, they change.

On the## contrary, if you want to do inhuman things# to people, what you strive to do is take## away their dignity, to call them names and# not recognize them for who they really are.

GEOFF BENNETT: Cardinal Joseph Tobin, thanks again# for your time this evening.

We appreciate it.

CARDINAL JOSEPH TOBIN: My# pleasure, Geoff.

God bless you.